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Oct 31, 2008

DPP demonstration applications rejected

I would guess political motivation but there could be valid concerns about the venue (outside Chen Yunlin's hotel).

11 comments:

John Tang said...

It has been 8 long years and I think Taiwan and Taiwanese have suffered enough.

It is also very sad that DPP still resort to demonstrations and violent protests without considering the social and economic costs of their actions.

They seem to be very proud making headlines all over the world with their corruption and violent stories. They don't even recognize that they are the miniority as the majority of the Taiwanese had rejected them in the May 20 election.

I also strongly believe it is only a handful of economically well-off Taiwanese who feel very strongly about TAIDU (independence). These people (some of them living overseas) are rich and do not have to worry about their livlihood. However, they are used by some downright despicable and corrupted politicians who exploited them wholesale. Do you really think ex-president Chen really think about TAIDU? It will be a big blow to these TAIDU supporters when eventually investigations into Chen's corruption cases showed that he embezzled a big chunk of money.

Another sad thing is some Taiwanese had been brainwashed into believing that TAIDU can be achieved. They really think that DPP should continue to fight hard for TAIDU. These people can continue to dream till their last days. They will also continue to play into the hands of those despicable politicians.

Think about it. If China allows Taiwan to achieve independence, it will have to let Tibet, XinJiang, Hong Kong and many other places become independent as well and then China will break up. Do you think the Chinese government will allow that to happen?

The only way for Taiwan to achieve TAIDU is for them to be economically stronger than China. Only then can they command China to do its biddings. This is not a likely situation for the next 50 years.

Thus the best situation is what President Ma proposes. BU TONG, BU DU, BU WU.

I think Taiwan is very blessed to have a new squeaky clean president and government.

STOP Ma said...

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john tang,

Let's clear up some facts here that you seem to ignore...

1. Taiwan was NEVER part of China. Got that? Never.

2. The overwhelming majority of Taiwanese do not want to unify with China. Ever.

3. PandaMa's popularity is lower than George W. Bush's now. The Taiwanese are finally waking up to the fact that the KMT are selling Taiwan out like a cheap whore on a Saturday night.

4. It is the KMT and CCP that have always been against the ideals of democracy that were fought for over several decades by the blood and sweat of the Taiwanese.

5. The KMT have -- by far -- been the most corrupt of the two parties -- to this day. Corrupting in Taiwan is systemic, thanks to the 40+ year authoritarian KMT regime.

6. The old argument about China breaking up is absurd. Hong Kong and Tibet are directly controlled by the CCP. Taiwan is not. The Taiwanese were never governed by the PRC. Ever. I must admit, however, that the broken fantasy that Taiwan is a part of China will be a hard pill to swallow for those brainwashed masses in China, but they'll get over it -- just like they've gotten over the Tienanmen Square massacre.

7. TI will never die unless China commits itself to murdering those millions of Taiwanese that believe in an de jure independent Taiwan. Somehow, I don't think that will sit well with the rest of the world.

8. PandaMa's days are numbered if he keeps doing what he's doing.
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eric said...

Stop Ma,

First, don't get me wrong, I am a taiwanese, I will never unify with communist china. however, I do leave options open one day china becomes a democratic nation.

Almost all islands out side of Taiwan island has never been part of taiwan, never, are you suggesting that we give up all those islands just because it has never been part of taiwan? If that is how world politics works, there would have been no war forever!

All people agree KMT used to be quite bad, in terms of corruption and authoritarian ruling, that is why DPP got elected 8 years ago. However, today all I heard is "they did it, why I can not do the same?" I can never agree two wrong makes it a right. Remember KMT used to use "KonFei" to fool all people in taiwan? now ex-president uses the same thing to fool taiwanese.

I do encourage ideas on taidu, unification, and BU TONG, BU DU, BU WU. We should not stereotype people being "brainwashed" just because we disagree.

STOP Ma said...

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eric,

You replied...

First, don't get me wrong, I am a taiwanese, I will never unify with communist china. however, I do leave options open one day china becomes a democratic nation.
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I do encourage ideas on taidu, unification, and BU TONG, BU DU, BU WU. We should not stereotype people being "brainwashed" just because we disagree.


Do you truly see signs of China becoming democratic? Where? China has currently embraced the worst aspects of Capitalism. That is, greed of the few triumphing over the welfare of the many. The melamine scandal was a perfect example of this. The Olympics were a complete farce. Beijing broke almost every promise they made to the IOC with respect to human rights and media freedom. And it is getting WORSE, not better.

My Chinese co-workers even admit that propaganda and indoctrination is ESSENTIAL to control the masses. Freedom of the press is a danger in every aspect to the CCP. How can you possibly write with a straight face that the Chinese population is not brainwashed into believing what they are fed by the central government? That in itself is astounding that you cannot even admit to that reality.

Do you realize what a threat the KMT is to your country continuing to be free and democratic? Do you realize that your country is on the cusp of being swallowed whole by Beijing with the help of the KMT?!

My god, man! Wake up!!! The greens are far from perfect, but if you want a free, democratic and de-facto independent Taiwan, you only have one choice right now. And that is NOT to side with the KMT and Ma.

Please don't lose the forest for the trees on this one. Your country depends on it!
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eric said...

stop ma,

Let's take a look how long it took US to become a democratic country. If you are interested in this topic, look at US history from 1920 to today. I am happy to give specifics if you are interested, just let me know.

Agree to disagree is the spirit of "free and democratic" society. The last vote in taiwan shows what the most people wants. I may disagree with the result but I do want give KMT an opportunity to do the job. We can vote them out next time if they do not perform.

In my mind, you have the tree and forest reversed. I believe the key is the differences in priority.

STOP Ma said...

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Let's take a look how long it took US to become a democratic country.

The U.S. should not be regarded as a model for democracy. The campaigns are usually bereft of meaningful discussion on important issues, the electorate is, therefore, uninformed and a large part of the population currently votes on machines that are 100% unverifiable.

With regards to how "informed" the electorate is -- the U.S. and Taiwan are quite similar. In the U.S., you have the right-wing corporate media dictating the discussion of the day. In Taiwan, it is the pro-blue media. Ma Ying-jeou, to a large part, was elected due to ignorance -- just as George W. Bush was in 2000 and 2004 (although he did not actually win either election).

Again, if you wish for a free democratic and de-facto independent Taiwan then unfortunately there is only one choice. Corruption exists in both major parties, as it does in the U.S.
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eric said...

Stop Ma,

Let's don't get cynical, as much as I dislike G. W. Bush, he did win 2004, both popular and electral votes. In 2000, he won electral vote but lost poplar. This has happened twice (1876, 1888) before in US history. That is the way the law is written today, not much we can do except changing the law.

Taiwan now is already de facto independent, making it de jure is difficult - need economical and political strength, which we do not have at this time.

Taiwan's ex-president set the movement back for at least 10 years - do not blame the result of election on "ignorance", if we want democracy, we need to accept it even it does not go our way!

STOP Ma said...

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Let's don't get cynical, as much as I dislike G. W. Bush, he did win 2004, both popular and electral votes. In 2000, he won electral vote but lost poplar.

Untrue.

After the 2000 election, an independent media group investigated the votes that were not counted (due to the Supreme Court decision to stop counting the votes). If all the votes were counted, Al Gore would have been the president.

In addition, there has been multiple studies done in Ohio after the 2004 election which show that Ken Blackwell (Sec. of State, Bush campaign manager for Ohio, and head of the elections process -- no conflict of interest there, right?) did indeed systematically ILLEGALLY disenfranchise enough voters in Ohio to allow Bush to make up the difference. Without this obstruction, Kerry would have won handedly in Ohio (and thus, the election).

Please do some reading before believing what you have been told by the corporate media. I followed both elections and the aftermath very closely.

...do not blame the result of election on "ignorance", if we want democracy, we need to accept it even it does not go our way!

Do you honestly believe if the electorate knew what Ma was planning to do these last few months that they would have elected him? His popularity is worse than Bush's now. The writing was on the wall well before the election of 2008, but the pan-blue media refused to report / investigate anything concerning Ma's intentions towards China -- contradictions and all. As I said, democracy DEPENDS on an informed electorate.
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eric said...

Many credible organizations counted the total votes including the ones stopped by Fl. court, Gore still lost the election. I voted democrats all my life, I say so is not because I like it, but it is the reality. The only argument now is whether those "pregnant chad" should have been counted.

I would have voted for Ma if I could vote in taiwan. As selecting any politician, it is a choice of lesser evil.

I'd say what Ma has done so far is pretty much as what I have expected. We have 8 years of DPP and we became even more marginal in the world. DPP is good for "feeling good", not much strength to back up what they said.

I don't think taiwan will be unified to or independent from china in the next 30 to 50 years. Why don't we concentrate on building some political capital for the next generation? I will encourage them to make whatever decision they see fit.

Uninformed is a big word, I always think people who disagree with me is uninformed!!!!

STOP Ma said...

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I'd say what Ma has done so far is pretty much as what I have expected. We have 8 years of DPP and we became even more marginal in the world. DPP is good for "feeling good", not much strength to back up what they said.


Apparently, you are in the minority as far as expectations are concerned. CSB had no leverage largely because of the obstructionist policy of the KMT in the legislature. I will always mark 2005 as a watermark year for Taiwan when the people, again, voted for short-term local goals and installed another KMT-controlled legislature. That, effectively, blocked CSB from any meaningful change.

Uninformed is a big word, I always think people who disagree with me is uninformed!!!!

Really? I don't. But when I see the people seeing what I saw several months ago, uninformed is an accurate term. Just like 60% of Americans were uniformed when they believed that Saddam Hussein was involved with 9-11 at one point during the Bush travesty.
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eric said...

When you hire someone work for you, would you like to have your employee tell you how much problems they encountered and that's why they can not accomplish any thing? I always tell my employee that you are hired to solve problems for the company, not to tell me your problems. I think it also applies to poloticians.

You are correct that people are not informed with the truth by bush administration, see what happens to them now.

Yes, I am in minority as far as Ma's popularity goes at this time. I do repect people who have different priority. It is not easy to be politician, with a low popularity, you are not doing what people wants, with a high popularity, you don't have a principle, you only concern about next election. I am willing to give him more time as I did with ex-president, if he does not perform, we can vote him out next time around.

As a KMT member all his life, you tell me what do you expect him to do? I am not saying I like what he is doing but I can clearly see that DPP would have done much worse.